[Sam]

The washers on the studs have deformed into the threads badly enough that I can't budge the head! I'm not about to pry too hard; I want all the fins, not just part of them. Rapping with a plastic mallet to see if I can wiggle it enough to maybe loosen up the grip so far has not been productive. Penetrating oil down the studs won't do the job; they're not frozen, they're pretty much threaded on. Any suggestions?

I do have a set of hardened washers ready to go for replacements. I also got new hardened washers (HD fender washers; unlike real fender washers, they're smaller, not bigger) for the valve covers.

[geoffbaker]

I'd suggest heat - try using a propane torch to warm the head enough to expand it a little. I've never tried it on my RE head, but I've used it in lots of applications when nothing else worked...

[LotusSevenMan]

I have heard of this squashed-washer-jamming-on-head-stud problem before but took it with a pinch of salt. Ummm. The problem obviously exists! You have the correct solution once the head comes off with those hardened washers but getting to this desirable point seems well tricky.
I can't think of a satisfactory answer though someone will hopefully be along soon as you aren't the only one on this forum to have suffererd this problem for sure!!!!!
Good luck 

[Kevin Mahoney]

Besides the hardened washers we are offering studs with a square end so that they can be screwed off with a wrench or socket to eliminate this problem. These are not yet on our website but will be in the new catalog which will be in the mail by the end of next week.

[Sam]

got it! a soft mallet and patience.

Now; what are the correct torques for the head nuts and the rocker assemblies? the value in the manual seems high.

[baird4444]

got it! a soft mallet and patience.
Now; what are the correct torques for the head nuts and the rocker assemblies? the value in the manual seems high.

Sam-  I've got 23.75 and 24 ft.LBs in my notes for the head. Seems like Somebody over on the yahoo site figured out that the specs were for the old Whitworth threads which are a thicker thread and that with the new threads being thinner that 21 ft.lb would be about right....  I don't think I dreamt this but I can't find it anywhere in my notes.
Rocker block studs are 10 ft.lbs by my notes.
Have I helped or confused you??

[old attachment deleted by admin]

[Sam]

yes, that confirms what I was thinking, that 285 in-lbs seems high; 20 ft lbs or so seems more like it. I seem to recall that same discussion. Anybody else?

While it's apart, I think I'll pull the barrel and remove the base gasket, substitute loctite gasket replacer stuff, pick up a little bit extra compression. Maybe drill out the oil holes in the rocker blocks a bit, too, in preparation for a high volume oil pump. Any comments?

I forget now why I started this; bored, maybe?

[LJRead]

Sam 

Sit back and don't think about it too hard and a solution will wend its way into your brain (at least that's the idea of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance").  Main thing, in a situation like this, is not to force things.  Would a couple of thinner nuts fit so you could lock them together and unscrew the stud?  Or is there enough extra space so you could file some flats in it like Kevin's square headed stud.  Are studs expensive?  If not maybe you could unscrew them with lock jaw pliers and replace.  If the studs are in there tight, that's where some heat would help.

Good luck,

Larry

[fredgold52]

One other thing you might try if the more conservative techniques don't work for you, maybe a thin cut off wheel on a dremel tool could be used to cut off a section of the washer.  If this could be done so as to break into the hole in the middle of the washer, that could provide some relief to make the washer let go.

Just a thought.  I haven't even had the tank off mine yet, so this suggestion is not based on any first hand knowledge what-so-ever. 

Good luck.  Makes me want to change out my washers now before they get too squashed.

[Sam]

for those of you who have not had this thrill; the studs live in a tunnel maybe 12 mm wide and 20--30 mm deep, with the washers at the bottom. The head nuts are a threaded sleeve with a hex on the top (like Harley head nuts, if that helps). the bottom of the sleeve bears on the washers, which in turn bear on the head casting. There is absolutely no access; none. I can barely even see the studs with the head on. What did work was alternately smacking the bottom of the intake port (with the manifold removed) and exhaust port with a 2# deadblow hammer, with the occasional slap sideways to wiggle the head. This wallowed-out the washers, which are made of something resembling shirt cardboard, enough to slide, reluctantly, over the threads without doing too much damage. Next time it's apart I'll replace the studs, I suppose, just on general principles. If you plan to pull the head for any reason, get some new, hardened, washers. Actually, even the worst Home Desperate stuff is probably better.

What happens is, when the head is snugged down, the washers get squeezed and spread out. They are constrained by the tunnel, so can't spread OUT, but can spread in around the threads. They are now firmly fixed in the tunnel, and I'll have to drive them out from the other side with something or other. That's the easy part.

It seems like a crappy design, but isn't really bad, it puts the stresses where they belong; the problem is that the design assumes a higher quality of material than is really there (unlike, say, Urals, where the design assumes shoddy materials, poorly made and sloppily assembled in haste by indifferent labor). Good washers should take care of it.

All this in search of 7:1 compression.

[SRL790]

Sam,

I know you have already sovled this but I went through the same routine the last time I pulled my head off.  I ended up cutting some wooden wedges and tapping them in at various points around the head to get it to come up evenly.

As for the base gasket, I coated both sides with "copper coat" along with the head gasket and have had no leaks thus far.  I have used this stuff on several engines, and although they may not have leaked anyway, I have not had any problems with the ones I have used it on.

I have also used the Loctite "Gasket Eliminator" for several projects, and it is good.  But, be careful about eliminating your base gasket as you are, in effect, raising the compression ratio by reducing the clearance between the piston and the valves.

I do not think that the clearances in the Enfield engine are that close but some careful measurement may be in order first.

[mbevo1]

One of the guys on the bullet-mania yahoo group says he gets the piston to BDC, then mashes as much 1/4" nylon rope as he can down the plug hole... then stands on the kickstart pedal.  Says this has worked well for him for years.  Another claims he just starts the engine after removing the head bolts.

Necessity is a mother...

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan

[Leonard]

For serious head removal check http://www.moonshiners.org.uk/bulletheadgone.htm

[mbevo1]

Wow...

That 's industrial... or should that be industrious...

Mike and Stumpy in Michigan

[Peter]

Two nylon ratchet straps over the top tube and under the head; one in front, one in back. Tighten evenly but tighty-tight. Use your favorite method to apply some gentle blows from below. Keep tightening the straps evenly and tighty-tight, as much as you can do with a medium duty ratchet.
It's easy on the fins and more than likely the head will come right off.

Peter

[clamp]

Maybe opening out the top of the head holes may stop it doing it again.

   You know kind of countersinking the tops.   Or drill out the very top of the hole to a larger size?   Ive not experienced it yet.

[DaveG297]

I know well of the problem......confirmed by the presence of hardened washers in the catalog from Minn...........I'd say wedges are the best bet but haven't tried it yet.  I don't know why you'd have to take head off any way........Maple , oak or a good hardwood wedges are reccommended.    I tried to take head off for different reason which I'm not going to pass on........dumbhead is really why......If I ever get them off I'll write it up.......cheap India steel...........dg

[clamp]

Wow--what did he say?   "cheap India steel"  I know what you mean, you may have opened a new thread here with that comment.

      I do agree though for this reason I never use a torque wrench --dont have one anyway,--- at 7:1 compression ratio you don't need to heave them down.

[OleO]

Just popped the head off my '06 500 Bullet Military the other night.
The manual said to tap upward in the intake and exhaust ports with
a piece of wood and a mallet. Worked for me. Used an old windshield
squeegee handle. Wiggled the head 'til the aluminum bracket that held
on the head broke. The remaining ferrule on that end served as a point
to strike what, in essence, was a 12 inch, hard, wooden dowel with a nice
rounded end opposite the ferrule end. Upward taps, alternating
between ports so as to not cock the head, broke the head free
and allowed me to work it up the studs. After it came up from the
cylinder a bit, I just grabbed it and pulled upward while wiggling
the head from side to side. Went well. I had heard the horror stories,
so I don't know if I got lucky or just did the right thing.

[DaveG297]

The problem as stated should never happen.....Hey guys, we bought into a bike made in India,,,,,,,what do we expect.     Now that THEY know of the problem,,,,,,,,,,THEY should render a FIX.   This never happened on a Jap bike that I know of .........dg

[jest2dogs]

I gotta jump in here.

Recently had my RE head off for gasket leak repair. I have personally removed that head four times in about 18 months.

I have replaced the studs nuts and washers and tried solid copper and stock gaskets. During these attempted "repairs" I have felt something "stretch" (head stud? crankcase threads?) and I have snapped off a head stud.

A dealer in Salem suggested 165 inch lbs for your final head torque. I have now done this and used a thin layer of medium weight TiteSeal for the gasket sealant. I have put about 100 miles on the bike since doing this and (wait a minute...knock on wood) I have no visible leaks after fighting them for most of the 4,300+ miles I have on the bike.

This seems to work for me. Now why, when the manuals and the forums all confer with the 285 inch lb (23.75 ft lbs) torque setting for head nuts, would I go along with 165 inch lbs.?

Well, quite a few folks that have had problems have actually pulled the studs out of the crankcase. Many complain that the Indian alloy used is rather like swiss cheese. I myself have had one stud stretch (or was it actually the crankcase threads?) And at 230 inch lbs I have had a hardened stud snap (a fluke?).

The 285 in lb torque is based on the stud and the strength of the steel in that stud. It is not based upon the medium into which the stud is seated, namely, the ALUMINUM crankcase. If the stud were seated in an equally rated metal like a cast iron or steel, well then, okay. But I don't believe that to be the case as indicated by my, so far, personal success (not to mention the dealer's multiple success with this method).

Just my two cents.

I have been meaning to send in my sequel under the tech section ("About to begin head...") but I've been out riding and not felt much like reliving the story,.. yet :O)

Gotta go, supper's on.

-Jesse, always stop for pie and coffee.

[baird4444]

I try to avoid these but I think there may be another side to this. I read an ex cellant ex plation a while back but didn't save it to file. This is from memory so here goes...

the torque spec hasn't changed in years but...
the threads have. The old torque spec was wrote for the the old whitworth threads which were thicker and stronger than today's... 
(I'm just a wrencher and try to leave the brainpower out of it)
so a valid torque value for the head would be 20 or 21 by today's thread strength;
or something like that. in other words; today's threads are weaker and cannot stand the old (and still listed) torque setting.
Just another point of view, hoping somebody remembers this  - Mike

[taildraggin]

I've always used the starter (kick or elec) to pop heads loose on cars and bikes.

[clamp]

You are trying to get the head off a car with Battery still connected the plug wires still on and the fuel lines,  throttle linkage etc??

   I suppose this is not a belt driven cam engine then?

[taildraggin]

Clamp:

Now that you mention it, I have not done it with an OHC engine.  I don't believe it would matter though, as long as you leave the cam chain/belt on.  It only breaks the seal and lifts the head a fraction.

You would have to be careful with a 'interference' motor - you wouldn't want to crank it with the cam chain/belt off, though I'm sure smacking the valve with the piston would break the seal, too.

I don't own any vehicles with overhead cams, all pushrod stuff (overhead cams are the signature of moral weakness and a corrupt society).  The MG Midget needs a new head gasket every other oil change; I've gotten it down to about a 1/2 hour job.  I don't bother removing the carb or linkage, just exhaust header needs removal.  Head nuts off, crank to break seal, lift off head, scrape and replace.

[clamp]

Tut Tut ,--Im a Brit --if you got a single carb on your MG Midget you aint got the original engine,--you got the Morris 1000.

    1/2 hour is why you have to keep doing it. Clean it better .   At 1/2 hour you don't re set the tappets iether.

    Ive never had a prob removing a head on any engine and I used to do it for a living.

[taildraggin]

You're a better man than I.

It's a Series A, 1275, Vizard job: putting out about 95hp.  Port and polish, high comp hepolites, copper head gasket, copperkote, with aftermarket (hardened) studs, 5:1 roller rockers, single SU HIF6 (webers a pain on the street) on a nice manifold, ceramic covered 3-2-1 exhaust, and a 'pretty hot' street cam.  It lives on avgas (leaded blue 100LL).  It breaks through between cyls 3-4 where the bores almost touch.  Pretty common on these motors.  Have to redo the valves every 9-10k miles, anyway.

[clamp]

The Mg midget should be twin SU,  1 1/4 I think.

    If it breaks through between 3/4 why doesnt it break through 1/2?

    You need to  re-surface the block or head.

     Try laying a 1mm copper wire around  around all the cylinders.

     Pull some copper wire out of some old household wiring, about 1mm is enough.

       Just twist lightly in a ring and lay on top of the gasket.   Dont use silicone use shilac.   You could also try another type of Gasket

[taildraggin]

Yes, the SU 11/4s" were stock.  I have them on the original head in the garage.

It leaks between 3&4 because it's a bad design.  Doubling the power of the engine has done nothing to improve it. 

The gap between the cyls. is about 1/8"(!) and engines generally move more toward the tranny (load) end of the motor.  (It's pretty common for these heads to crack in the ports, too.)  May be a head bolt pattern problem, too - who knows? 

It was carefully decked and is plate glass flat - a friend has a race shop that has evolved over 30 years from building road racers (touring cars) to 'classic' race car restoration shop.  (Basically, he's been working on the same cars since they were new.)  The stock gaskets get a "20/20 warranty - 20 minutes or 20 miles" on these engines.  The non-standard copper gaskets give it some duration, much like the wire you describe, they are soft and seal pretty well, but only hold out for 4-5k miles.
 
Usually, something else goes out around that time, so it's a routine process.  It's stripped out to below 1300lbs, so it goes pretty nicely.  After a T120R, it has been the perfect primer for the Enfield.

[clamp]

Its amazing how moving a car over the pond can bring out amazing failures never heard of in UK.
       These cars went for years and years. the Morris 1000 was a very reliable engine, but your is bored to 1275 like the mini cooper, all the A series were based on that motor.

    I dont know what you mean about the power being towards the back of the engine and therefore blowing gaskets??

     Bad design , cracking heads, head bolt problem???